1 00:00:00,650 --> 00:00:04,286 Hello? Hi Kiara, can you 2 00:00:04,308 --> 00:00:07,374 hear me? I can. Can you hear me? 3 00:00:07,572 --> 00:00:11,166 Yes, I can. Perfect. Thank you so 4 00:00:11,188 --> 00:00:14,654 much for taking the time to meet me 5 00:00:14,692 --> 00:00:17,630 for this interview. Let me introduce you. 6 00:00:17,700 --> 00:00:21,498 This is Kiara munarett. She's the founder of Mass Chain. 7 00:00:21,594 --> 00:00:24,902 This is an interview for DLT Talents program 8 00:00:25,076 --> 00:00:28,882 where they're trying to empower more females into the blockchain, 9 00:00:28,946 --> 00:00:32,806 crypto and Web Three world in general. So we 10 00:00:32,828 --> 00:00:36,342 both met at the DLT Talents program where we're still both 11 00:00:36,396 --> 00:00:40,086 participate. I'm going to just go straight into some of 12 00:00:40,108 --> 00:00:43,114 the questions that I have prepared. I looked through your 13 00:00:43,152 --> 00:00:47,226 profile and I saw that you were a founder, you are also involved in this 14 00:00:47,328 --> 00:00:50,858 program and that you are involved in organizing a 15 00:00:50,864 --> 00:00:54,366 lot of events. So I thought that 16 00:00:54,388 --> 00:00:58,346 you were a good persona to interview. And I'm 17 00:00:58,378 --> 00:01:01,806 going to start by asking at what point do you think that. It was 18 00:01:01,828 --> 00:01:03,920 time to make the move into Web Three? 19 00:01:04,850 --> 00:01:08,162 Yes. So first of all, thank you so much for having me and 20 00:01:08,296 --> 00:01:12,030 I'm enjoying quite a lot DLT program so I hope you're 21 00:01:12,110 --> 00:01:16,118 doing that as well. And I am quite happy that you also choose me as 22 00:01:16,284 --> 00:01:19,798 interviewee. And so concerning your question, 23 00:01:19,884 --> 00:01:23,858 I think it was sort of a natural smooth 24 00:01:24,034 --> 00:01:27,286 passage into Web Three because I have 25 00:01:27,308 --> 00:01:31,126 a background in marketing, so I've always worked into marketing 26 00:01:31,158 --> 00:01:35,078 and communication. And I think it was 2019 27 00:01:35,174 --> 00:01:39,254 that I was working in this company that takes care of the fiscal and financial 28 00:01:39,302 --> 00:01:42,942 side of online businesses in general. And at a certain 29 00:01:42,996 --> 00:01:46,222 point we were starting to question whether we should 30 00:01:46,356 --> 00:01:50,206 starting to worry about crypto regulation as well. 31 00:01:50,308 --> 00:01:53,550 And so at first I was like what is crypto? What is blockchain? 32 00:01:53,630 --> 00:01:57,090 What are these new terms? So then I started 33 00:01:57,160 --> 00:02:00,354 researching a little bit more by myself and I 34 00:02:00,392 --> 00:02:04,382 really got into the space because I saw immediately 35 00:02:04,526 --> 00:02:08,690 new opportunities. I'm very technology passionate 36 00:02:08,770 --> 00:02:12,566 and innovation passionate I would say. So it was clear for me to the 37 00:02:12,588 --> 00:02:16,738 beginning that the kind of technology that really tried to empower 38 00:02:16,834 --> 00:02:21,818 every user inside the blockchain, it could have been a 39 00:02:21,824 --> 00:02:25,594 nice technology that would also have a future 40 00:02:25,712 --> 00:02:28,954 in a sense. And of course now we are four 41 00:02:28,992 --> 00:02:32,766 year past when I started. So indeed this is 42 00:02:32,788 --> 00:02:36,474 the case. So during my journey then I just kept 43 00:02:36,522 --> 00:02:39,962 going and I started going to conferences 44 00:02:40,026 --> 00:02:44,154 at first because I needed to talk to the people who were making 45 00:02:44,292 --> 00:02:47,886 this change in a sense. And so that's 46 00:02:47,918 --> 00:02:51,650 actually what really got me in because I saw that the way people 47 00:02:51,720 --> 00:02:55,718 were doing business in Web Three, it was completely different 48 00:02:55,804 --> 00:02:59,126 from the way Web Two people were doing the business. And I very 49 00:02:59,148 --> 00:03:03,254 much like the collaborative and innovative approach that Web 50 00:03:03,292 --> 00:03:06,818 Three people have converted 51 00:03:06,834 --> 00:03:10,634 to Web Two. And just recently, six months ago, as you well 52 00:03:10,672 --> 00:03:14,778 said, I founded Masschain, which is a community student 53 00:03:14,864 --> 00:03:18,662 association that really tries to empower university 54 00:03:18,726 --> 00:03:22,342 student in my current university in Maastric 55 00:03:22,486 --> 00:03:26,266 and we really try to bridge the Web Two and 56 00:03:26,368 --> 00:03:29,774 Web Three skill gap. So for people who want to work in the Web 57 00:03:29,812 --> 00:03:33,614 Three space and on the other hand, just really explaining 58 00:03:33,662 --> 00:03:38,178 in easy terms everything concerning and going around 59 00:03:38,344 --> 00:03:42,450 Web Three. I guess that back in 2019 60 00:03:42,790 --> 00:03:46,822 it was already like spoke around the world, but it was not so big 61 00:03:46,876 --> 00:03:50,294 yet. So I think you joined at the perfect time where 62 00:03:50,332 --> 00:03:53,640 the booming started and you took advantage of that as well. 63 00:03:54,490 --> 00:03:58,066 Yeah, exactly. So I didn't quite like I'm not the bitcoin 64 00:03:58,098 --> 00:04:01,354 bro of 2013 or something, but I 65 00:04:01,392 --> 00:04:05,674 did take the, let's say 2021 66 00:04:05,712 --> 00:04:09,674 NFC wave and everything. So I 67 00:04:09,712 --> 00:04:13,422 think I kind of enter when there was this big 68 00:04:13,476 --> 00:04:17,374 speculative bubble in a sense, and now we're seeing more 69 00:04:17,492 --> 00:04:21,022 concrete and real applications. Which is why I do believe that 70 00:04:21,076 --> 00:04:24,306 this is something that will stay also in the future. 71 00:04:24,488 --> 00:04:28,178 Yes, for sure. I agree. More and more we are seeing 72 00:04:28,264 --> 00:04:31,806 more companies, more startups, implementing innovative ideas 73 00:04:31,838 --> 00:04:34,654 and now with this new boom of generative AI, 74 00:04:34,702 --> 00:04:37,830 there's also like so many things as well. Yes, 75 00:04:37,900 --> 00:04:41,734 merging into each other. I think maybe next year we'll be able 76 00:04:41,772 --> 00:04:45,240 to do things that we are not even imagining yet. 77 00:04:46,170 --> 00:04:50,490 But it's exactly that's a little bit the pace because 78 00:04:50,560 --> 00:04:54,106 I do feel that every two to six months a new 79 00:04:54,128 --> 00:04:57,290 technology just comes in and gets adopted super 80 00:04:57,440 --> 00:05:01,086 easily. And that's what we have seen with as 81 00:05:01,108 --> 00:05:04,670 well. For example, one year ago there was just like 82 00:05:04,740 --> 00:05:08,506 very few people using it and now it's like daily 83 00:05:08,618 --> 00:05:11,886 usage for, I think, a lot of people. 84 00:05:11,988 --> 00:05:15,962 So it may happen the same with some Web Three technologies 85 00:05:16,026 --> 00:05:20,094 as well. Definitely. And I think that programs like DLT talents 86 00:05:20,222 --> 00:05:23,426 are really good because there's a lot of people interested and they don't know where 87 00:05:23,448 --> 00:05:26,722 to start to look and to learn more. So at least 88 00:05:26,856 --> 00:05:30,406 we already have this network of females and most of 89 00:05:30,428 --> 00:05:33,542 my LinkedIn posts, they always get a lot of reactions from people, 90 00:05:33,596 --> 00:05:37,158 from the group, which is great. So it's a 91 00:05:37,164 --> 00:05:41,110 great way to start. I think my next question is 92 00:05:41,180 --> 00:05:44,758 from your experience and given that you were in marketing and now you're 93 00:05:44,774 --> 00:05:48,026 helping them to migrate from Web Two to Web Three, what are some of the 94 00:05:48,048 --> 00:05:51,230 challenges that these brands face when they try to make the transition? 95 00:05:52,610 --> 00:05:56,638 Yeah, so I think that the first big issue 96 00:05:56,724 --> 00:06:00,654 is really education and awareness. So I think that not 97 00:06:00,692 --> 00:06:04,222 enough people yet do know what exactly is 98 00:06:04,276 --> 00:06:08,034 with me and somehow between us that we are inside 99 00:06:08,152 --> 00:06:11,474 sort of on the service provider side. We do focus a lot 100 00:06:11,512 --> 00:06:15,038 on technicalities and making sure that everything works but now it's 101 00:06:15,054 --> 00:06:18,726 also the time to make it easy in their sense. Work a 102 00:06:18,748 --> 00:06:22,006 lot on user experience as well and in 103 00:06:22,028 --> 00:06:25,814 the way we designed the technology. So I 104 00:06:25,852 --> 00:06:29,570 think that also the fact that there has been a lot of speculative 105 00:06:29,650 --> 00:06:33,018 ways or just like press releases in 106 00:06:33,024 --> 00:06:36,620 which they were just focusing on what was the hype. At the moment, 107 00:06:37,150 --> 00:06:40,934 I think from the general population, not a lot of people can 108 00:06:40,992 --> 00:06:44,746 detach the usage from some specific cases. 109 00:06:44,858 --> 00:06:48,206 For example with crypto, for example, with NFT. So when there has 110 00:06:48,228 --> 00:06:51,360 been the bubble of NFTR, for example, 111 00:06:51,730 --> 00:06:55,474 a lot of people just tend to relate the two terms but actually it's just 112 00:06:55,512 --> 00:06:59,380 one application and NFT just refers to the technology. 113 00:07:00,150 --> 00:07:04,574 So I think there's a lot of misconceptions and misalignment 114 00:07:04,622 --> 00:07:08,882 in the way we talk to the actual users. 115 00:07:09,026 --> 00:07:12,246 I think that's actually the first big challenge that 116 00:07:12,268 --> 00:07:15,414 we need to sort of assess to really try 117 00:07:15,452 --> 00:07:19,546 to make it easy to adopt then in 118 00:07:19,568 --> 00:07:23,430 terms of technology, maybe more the scalability 119 00:07:23,590 --> 00:07:27,002 and interoperability between different systems. So even 120 00:07:27,056 --> 00:07:30,826 between decentralized and centralized. So when it comes to tokenization, 121 00:07:30,938 --> 00:07:34,222 for example, or even bridging different 122 00:07:34,276 --> 00:07:37,978 blockchains that everything just runs smoothly. I think we're 123 00:07:38,074 --> 00:07:41,626 very much testing the technology but we are not yet a stage 124 00:07:41,658 --> 00:07:44,994 in which everything can be decentralized because 125 00:07:45,032 --> 00:07:49,278 it's not secure enough, it's not once again easily comprehended 126 00:07:49,294 --> 00:07:53,058 by everyone. So I think these two problems, 127 00:07:53,144 --> 00:07:56,962 one more on the technical side and the other one more on the awareness 128 00:07:57,026 --> 00:08:00,774 side, goes hand in hand because when someone is 129 00:08:00,812 --> 00:08:05,250 able to transit from one place to the other then it's also sort of simulates 130 00:08:05,330 --> 00:08:08,726 the way we behave in the Internet 131 00:08:08,758 --> 00:08:12,810 right now. So we can go from one place to the other with no issues, 132 00:08:12,880 --> 00:08:16,394 without having to change any key or 133 00:08:16,592 --> 00:08:19,130 whatever. Could be the case. 134 00:08:19,280 --> 00:08:23,658 And I think one last case could be the regulatory 135 00:08:23,754 --> 00:08:27,374 environment. Of course we've seen now some improvements with 136 00:08:27,412 --> 00:08:31,754 Mika, but still I think it very much just focuses 137 00:08:31,882 --> 00:08:35,682 on crypto so not on the entire ecosystem because 138 00:08:35,736 --> 00:08:39,650 now I think after, I don't know, more than 20 years of AI, 139 00:08:40,550 --> 00:08:43,954 now we have some regulations about AI ethics, for example. 140 00:08:44,072 --> 00:08:48,614 But in terms of blockchain, in terms of the technology itself, 141 00:08:48,812 --> 00:08:51,698 the way it is assessed, there is no regulation. 142 00:08:51,794 --> 00:08:55,138 So now just the financial side has been regulated, 143 00:08:55,234 --> 00:08:59,078 which is important, which is a great step, but yet 144 00:08:59,244 --> 00:09:02,746 not enough. So I think these are a little bit 145 00:09:02,768 --> 00:09:06,186 the biggest challenge right now. Yes, and I 146 00:09:06,208 --> 00:09:09,926 think maybe one of the other challenges, I'm not sure, because I don't 147 00:09:09,958 --> 00:09:13,758 really work with brands might be the budget because sometimes 148 00:09:13,844 --> 00:09:18,094 they might not have enough budget to get into, I don't know, 149 00:09:18,212 --> 00:09:21,294 into the web three space. So we see 150 00:09:21,332 --> 00:09:24,640 a lot of bigger players like Nike for example, 151 00:09:25,170 --> 00:09:28,866 entering the world and smaller brands they want to follow because they also want to 152 00:09:28,888 --> 00:09:32,866 be in it, but sometimes it involves a budget that they don't have. So I 153 00:09:32,888 --> 00:09:35,782 don't know. Do you agree that it might be also a struggle that they face 154 00:09:35,836 --> 00:09:38,920 or you haven't worked with brands that have that issue. 155 00:09:41,130 --> 00:09:44,054 I think that concerning this question. 156 00:09:44,172 --> 00:09:47,510 Certainly budget is an issue, 157 00:09:47,580 --> 00:09:50,906 I would say, but I think that main thing is that a lot of 158 00:09:50,928 --> 00:09:54,826 brands just start to follow each other projects without focusing on 159 00:09:54,848 --> 00:09:58,026 delivering a project with really a 160 00:09:58,048 --> 00:10:01,514 utility that serves their audience. So what they're doing 161 00:10:01,552 --> 00:10:05,182 is just like yeah, exactly. They're just like keep copying each other 162 00:10:05,316 --> 00:10:08,750 to be in the space. So of course, if a small 163 00:10:08,820 --> 00:10:12,590 brands just want to copy what I don't know, like Nike for example did, 164 00:10:12,660 --> 00:10:16,594 of course they don't have the same budget, but they can readapt what they just 165 00:10:16,632 --> 00:10:20,130 did based on their audience because they've also had different 166 00:10:20,200 --> 00:10:23,998 recognitions, different brand reputations. You cannot just copy paste 167 00:10:24,094 --> 00:10:27,606 and it's not even the purpose. So I think it's an 168 00:10:27,628 --> 00:10:30,934 issue, but I think it's also sometimes just to be 169 00:10:30,972 --> 00:10:34,360 in the way more than actually make something that makes sense. 170 00:10:36,410 --> 00:10:39,718 I guess that at the end of the day, when you're helping them with the 171 00:10:39,724 --> 00:10:43,802 marketing, that's what they care about is to show the customers 172 00:10:43,936 --> 00:10:47,242 that they are in this world and they are cool as well. 173 00:10:47,296 --> 00:10:50,894 They're keeping up with the trends. So maybe that's more important 174 00:10:51,092 --> 00:10:54,000 in a way at this time for them. 175 00:10:55,570 --> 00:10:59,658 Yes. So moving on a little bit from Marting 176 00:10:59,754 --> 00:11:03,166 and your experience with brands and Web Three. 177 00:11:03,348 --> 00:11:07,102 I saw that you organized some events, 178 00:11:07,166 --> 00:11:10,546 I think recently you had one. Could you just remind me 179 00:11:10,568 --> 00:11:13,826 the name. Because I don't have it. Yeah, of course. It was the 180 00:11:13,848 --> 00:11:17,314 Dutch blockchain days. So it was one of the largest events that 181 00:11:17,352 --> 00:11:20,774 we do in the Netherlands. One was the Dutch Blockchain days and the other 182 00:11:20,812 --> 00:11:24,434 one was the Dutch Blockchain week. So we mostly focused on the Netherlands. 183 00:11:24,482 --> 00:11:28,458 But for example, with this last one we really went 184 00:11:28,544 --> 00:11:32,026 international. So we had speakers from really all over the 185 00:11:32,048 --> 00:11:35,818 world. That's amazing. When I saw a 186 00:11:35,824 --> 00:11:39,020 little bit of your posts and I don't know, 187 00:11:39,950 --> 00:11:43,422 I never organized anything and it was always something that I wanted 188 00:11:43,476 --> 00:11:47,614 to do. So could you maybe let me know or run 189 00:11:47,652 --> 00:11:50,814 me through how does it go to organize such a big 190 00:11:50,852 --> 00:11:54,610 event? Like the biggest, like you said in the Netherlands? 191 00:11:55,030 --> 00:11:58,562 Yeah, well, first of all, you need a very great 192 00:11:58,616 --> 00:12:02,450 team. You need to have 193 00:12:02,600 --> 00:12:06,354 people who are really interested in not just that they're doing 194 00:12:06,392 --> 00:12:10,058 this because they are paid, for example. So there needs to be passionate 195 00:12:10,094 --> 00:12:13,446 and care about people and the outcome of the event because we 196 00:12:13,468 --> 00:12:17,190 are really all passionate and we are all really 197 00:12:17,260 --> 00:12:21,226 into the Web Three space. So we know how people think, 198 00:12:21,328 --> 00:12:25,014 we know how business, like corporates, 199 00:12:25,062 --> 00:12:28,522 for example, needs to be treated different from small 200 00:12:28,576 --> 00:12:31,934 businesses, from startups, from scale ups and so 201 00:12:31,972 --> 00:12:36,506 on. So you also need to be aware of what's 202 00:12:36,538 --> 00:12:40,654 your target so that's I would say the first thing. And also in 203 00:12:40,692 --> 00:12:43,934 terms of target, who you want to be sponsored by, 204 00:12:44,052 --> 00:12:47,422 what are the type of speakers. And so this further 205 00:12:47,486 --> 00:12:50,498 creates sort of the atmosphere of the event. 206 00:12:50,664 --> 00:12:53,934 And I think that one of the greatest feedback that we receive 207 00:12:53,982 --> 00:12:57,798 is that we really managed to bring together high quality 208 00:12:57,884 --> 00:13:01,010 people so speaker who really mattered. 209 00:13:01,090 --> 00:13:04,678 And in this sense, we sort of created this intimate event 210 00:13:04,764 --> 00:13:08,674 even if we had 500 people. But still the way people 211 00:13:08,732 --> 00:13:12,486 could interact each other was very smooth. And I think that really nailed 212 00:13:12,518 --> 00:13:16,314 our objective as well because it was just easy for 213 00:13:16,352 --> 00:13:19,578 people to network and so on. 214 00:13:19,744 --> 00:13:23,818 Then of course one of the other biggest part of the event like in organizing 215 00:13:23,834 --> 00:13:27,306 events is the marketing and communication size. So the way you advertise 216 00:13:27,338 --> 00:13:30,526 your event you need to be straight to the point 217 00:13:30,628 --> 00:13:33,714 and try to show as much content as possible. 218 00:13:33,832 --> 00:13:36,946 And when it comes to web three, but also would 219 00:13:36,968 --> 00:13:41,060 say increasingly in web two what really matters is the 220 00:13:41,750 --> 00:13:46,494 users or the speakers or the partners speaking of 221 00:13:46,552 --> 00:13:49,926 you and not vice versa. So of course it's important to announce everyone 222 00:13:50,028 --> 00:13:53,826 but if they are talking about you then it's more reliable. 223 00:13:54,018 --> 00:13:57,798 So this is sort of named as 224 00:13:57,884 --> 00:14:01,842 user generated content, if you want to classify 225 00:14:01,906 --> 00:14:05,642 it. And I think that what is really working because in the sense 226 00:14:05,696 --> 00:14:09,434 you really create sort of a community and you see 227 00:14:09,472 --> 00:14:13,406 that people are all active so it's not just one 228 00:14:13,508 --> 00:14:16,558 too many but it's really like many too many. So they 229 00:14:16,564 --> 00:14:19,902 are all talking about it and of course then 230 00:14:19,956 --> 00:14:23,070 the more organizational side so make sure you have 231 00:14:23,140 --> 00:14:26,674 a nice place that really also fits within your 232 00:14:26,712 --> 00:14:30,114 target. So if you have, I don't know, 233 00:14:30,312 --> 00:14:33,666 all sea level people from corporates, of course you need 234 00:14:33,688 --> 00:14:36,922 to design the space in a way in which they feel comfortable. 235 00:14:37,086 --> 00:14:39,522 Well if you're just having a small meetup, 236 00:14:39,586 --> 00:14:43,186 maybe a nice bar or something like that could be more suitable. 237 00:14:43,298 --> 00:14:46,706 So I think it all comes to what's 238 00:14:46,738 --> 00:14:50,674 your objective and to know very well your audience so 239 00:14:50,732 --> 00:14:53,974 they can get the message that you want to deliver. 240 00:14:54,102 --> 00:14:57,338 Because if you want to deliver something but then you have another 241 00:14:57,504 --> 00:15:01,166 type of audience, then the two things just don't match. 242 00:15:01,268 --> 00:15:05,886 And then the result is not positive, but not because you 243 00:15:05,908 --> 00:15:09,294 didn't work hard, but just because what you 244 00:15:09,332 --> 00:15:12,080 expected and what they expected was different. 245 00:15:12,610 --> 00:15:16,386 So I think really focus on that, your message 246 00:15:16,568 --> 00:15:19,090 arrives clear to the audience. 247 00:15:20,390 --> 00:15:23,762 Definitely I agree and I 248 00:15:23,816 --> 00:15:27,974 like the fact that you mentioned about caring about the networking and 249 00:15:28,092 --> 00:15:32,102 making people feel comfortable about talking with each other because last 250 00:15:32,156 --> 00:15:35,586 year I attended Web Summit in Lisbon and actually it's 251 00:15:35,618 --> 00:15:39,062 such a big event and there's so many things happening at the same time. 252 00:15:39,116 --> 00:15:42,950 A person feels a bit overwhelmed because you are interested in a lot of areas. 253 00:15:43,030 --> 00:15:46,234 There's a lot of things happening at the same time again, 254 00:15:46,432 --> 00:15:49,642 and you feel frustrated that you cannot attend some or 255 00:15:49,696 --> 00:15:52,878 you're still running from one side to the other. And at the end of the 256 00:15:52,884 --> 00:15:56,174 day is an event with so many people and you could 257 00:15:56,212 --> 00:15:59,854 network so much. But I didn't see an effort from their 258 00:15:59,892 --> 00:16:02,894 sites to make those connections between people. 259 00:16:03,092 --> 00:16:06,402 Everyone. I would see a lot of people by themselves having 260 00:16:06,456 --> 00:16:09,826 lunch or running from one side to 261 00:16:09,848 --> 00:16:13,666 the other. Yeah, of course so it's good to. 262 00:16:13,688 --> 00:16:16,898 Know that you had that in mind and how long 263 00:16:16,984 --> 00:16:20,280 do you have to plan in advance for these type of events? For example? 264 00:16:21,210 --> 00:16:24,598 So it also depends on if 265 00:16:24,604 --> 00:16:27,734 you have a community or not. So if you have to start to build 266 00:16:27,772 --> 00:16:31,514 a community from scratch, then of course I would say plan 267 00:16:31,632 --> 00:16:34,874 one year in advance would be the best. But just because you need 268 00:16:34,912 --> 00:16:38,502 to get started so you need to have a brand reputation 269 00:16:38,646 --> 00:16:42,426 before even just announcing that you will be doing an event that 270 00:16:42,528 --> 00:16:45,918 takes a lot of time and I would say that on the second 271 00:16:46,004 --> 00:16:49,726 3rd event then you will really see the success. So it depends also if 272 00:16:49,748 --> 00:16:53,246 you want to organize a one time event or if you're trying to 273 00:16:53,268 --> 00:16:56,658 build sort of a series of events for example 274 00:16:56,744 --> 00:16:59,874 every year or twice a year. So for example, what is 275 00:16:59,912 --> 00:17:03,950 doing ethereum? They think they are doing it very well because they're 276 00:17:04,030 --> 00:17:07,894 well spread around the entire world but they have sort of a 277 00:17:08,092 --> 00:17:11,606 recurrence so they're doing it every, I don't know, 278 00:17:11,708 --> 00:17:15,174 almost month depending on the city. So that's of course 279 00:17:15,212 --> 00:17:18,614 a different objective of I don't know me and you saying 280 00:17:18,652 --> 00:17:22,218 okay, we are together in this city, let's organism each up then maybe it just 281 00:17:22,304 --> 00:17:25,786 ends with itself. So concerning time, I would say 282 00:17:25,808 --> 00:17:29,958 that this is what people should be considering 283 00:17:30,134 --> 00:17:33,198 and of course also the team 284 00:17:33,284 --> 00:17:36,574 and the budget. So if you have a lot of 285 00:17:36,772 --> 00:17:40,778 availability, then of course you can do more in a shorter period 286 00:17:40,794 --> 00:17:44,400 of time. But if you are in few people, there are 287 00:17:44,850 --> 00:17:48,386 really a lot of things that you need to take care of. So I 288 00:17:48,408 --> 00:17:51,602 would always say just take enough time at 289 00:17:51,656 --> 00:17:54,914 least six months before if you aim to have 290 00:17:54,952 --> 00:17:58,040 an event above 200 300 people, 291 00:17:58,570 --> 00:18:02,162 especially because when it comes to the venue, the speakers 292 00:18:02,226 --> 00:18:05,446 is not that you can call them one month and say hey, can you 293 00:18:05,468 --> 00:18:09,254 speak at this event? So I would say that the earlier 294 00:18:09,302 --> 00:18:12,778 the better because then there's always some no show 295 00:18:12,864 --> 00:18:16,394 or just any problems that you may encounter so you 296 00:18:16,432 --> 00:18:19,340 still have the time to tackle those ones. 297 00:18:19,710 --> 00:18:23,354 Definitely. Thank you for answering. 298 00:18:23,402 --> 00:18:26,654 I think so far you've been bringing a lot of value 299 00:18:26,772 --> 00:18:30,014 to this interview. Thank you. I was 300 00:18:30,052 --> 00:18:33,354 thinking now of moving a bit more into your entrepreneurial 301 00:18:33,482 --> 00:18:36,814 path. I saw that you founded 302 00:18:36,862 --> 00:18:40,610 Mass Chain and you said that it was a year and a half ago. 303 00:18:40,680 --> 00:18:44,514 No, two years. No, this is just half year 304 00:18:44,552 --> 00:18:47,734 so I found it in February so it's quite early yeah. 305 00:18:47,852 --> 00:18:51,480 Okay. Do you want to run me through like how it started, 306 00:18:51,850 --> 00:18:55,446 your idea and maybe some of the 307 00:18:55,468 --> 00:18:58,914 challenges that you faced as a first time entrepreneur? 308 00:18:58,962 --> 00:19:01,100 I'm assuming that it's your first company. 309 00:19:02,590 --> 00:19:06,454 Yeah, so I think I've always been kind of an entrepreneurial 310 00:19:06,502 --> 00:19:10,106 in a sense. So I had a lot of ideas. I always spoke on social, 311 00:19:10,208 --> 00:19:13,774 about different things. But I would say since three 312 00:19:13,812 --> 00:19:17,840 years the focus has always been on technology. So first I was talking 313 00:19:18,610 --> 00:19:22,080 about technology a little bit broader than I focused on the web three 314 00:19:22,470 --> 00:19:26,580 space. But I've always had many ideas in mind. 315 00:19:28,950 --> 00:19:32,162 In December, since this is my last 316 00:19:32,216 --> 00:19:35,654 year of The Bachelor, I just submitted my thesis last 317 00:19:35,692 --> 00:19:39,814 week. I really noticed that while 318 00:19:39,852 --> 00:19:44,022 I was growing, there was no association that was taking 319 00:19:44,076 --> 00:19:47,782 care of my interest. And I was seeing that 320 00:19:47,916 --> 00:19:51,882 the more I was getting contact with university students, 321 00:19:52,016 --> 00:19:55,226 the more also other people were interested. But we didn't know where 322 00:19:55,248 --> 00:19:58,822 to go. So we found the first association 323 00:19:58,886 --> 00:20:02,270 and that just really came from a need, I would say, 324 00:20:02,340 --> 00:20:05,854 to really gather people together because I 325 00:20:05,892 --> 00:20:09,130 always had to go to Barcelona, to Amsterdam, 326 00:20:09,210 --> 00:20:12,974 to Einsilven sometimes to really meet people, 327 00:20:13,172 --> 00:20:17,714 to talk about these kind of things. So then 328 00:20:17,752 --> 00:20:21,138 I talked with a couple of people and then we just get started 329 00:20:21,224 --> 00:20:24,434 with we thought about the name, the brand name, 330 00:20:24,632 --> 00:20:28,726 the structure of the team and so on. And then we 331 00:20:28,748 --> 00:20:31,846 got a team of 14 people. So there was quite a 332 00:20:31,868 --> 00:20:35,366 lot. So my idea was really, since it's still, like I 333 00:20:35,388 --> 00:20:38,630 would say, an early stage sector, 334 00:20:39,050 --> 00:20:42,522 there weren't too many people, I would say, 335 00:20:42,576 --> 00:20:45,866 interested in just running the association because of course, 336 00:20:45,968 --> 00:20:49,802 I would say a certain kind of knowledge is needed in order to help 337 00:20:49,856 --> 00:20:53,086 people. So our team was spread all 338 00:20:53,108 --> 00:20:57,262 over Europe, but our focus was on the target of 339 00:20:57,396 --> 00:21:01,134 massive university students. So then we did a couple 340 00:21:01,172 --> 00:21:04,974 of events both in person and online. And we mostly 341 00:21:05,022 --> 00:21:08,978 delivered research reports. So we 342 00:21:09,064 --> 00:21:12,386 focus on crypt analysis, so how to get it started, 343 00:21:12,488 --> 00:21:15,634 but not from a financial advice perspective, but more 344 00:21:15,672 --> 00:21:18,840 on when you see the market. How do you understand 345 00:21:19,610 --> 00:21:23,762 if a coin is decentralized and to what extent it is decentralized, 346 00:21:23,826 --> 00:21:26,866 how do you understand certain kind of metrics, 347 00:21:26,898 --> 00:21:30,790 for example? And then we try to break down also more their technicalities. 348 00:21:30,870 --> 00:21:34,310 So when it comes to blockchain, what are the different types of layers, 349 00:21:34,390 --> 00:21:38,566 what do they need, what are the main projects? And we compared projects 350 00:21:38,678 --> 00:21:42,702 while on the research side we focus on the web 351 00:21:42,756 --> 00:21:47,070 two space. So how some brands are entering 352 00:21:48,130 --> 00:21:51,326 the web three space and so we 353 00:21:51,348 --> 00:21:54,670 deliver some articles. So we're really, I would say in the brains, 354 00:21:54,750 --> 00:21:59,086 not brainstorming because we did deliver something, but we are studying 355 00:21:59,198 --> 00:22:02,622 how people react to what we are delivering. 356 00:22:02,686 --> 00:22:06,102 Of course we had a lot of challenges because it's hard to just 357 00:22:06,236 --> 00:22:09,746 get started with an association, especially because it's 358 00:22:09,858 --> 00:22:13,586 voluntary, it's a completely no profit 359 00:22:13,618 --> 00:22:17,602 association is just to spread education in my city, 360 00:22:17,676 --> 00:22:21,980 I would say. So it's hard to keep people together 361 00:22:23,390 --> 00:22:27,946 also because they have to be moved just by interest in 362 00:22:27,968 --> 00:22:31,338 the sector, not by money, not by anything 363 00:22:31,424 --> 00:22:35,680 else apart from networking and delivering good quality content. 364 00:22:36,850 --> 00:22:40,574 That's a little bit how it has been so far but I'm very happy of 365 00:22:40,612 --> 00:22:43,918 what we achieved because I think we delivered enough 366 00:22:44,004 --> 00:22:48,126 content to say that we are active but still there's 367 00:22:48,158 --> 00:22:51,522 a lot of things that can be improved. So at the moment, 368 00:22:51,576 --> 00:22:55,140 do you have a number of active people in your community? 369 00:22:57,450 --> 00:23:01,222 Not really, because we didn't manage to organize one last event. 370 00:23:01,276 --> 00:23:05,270 So I would say we could go around 100 between 371 00:23:05,340 --> 00:23:08,482 the ones that showed up about our first presentation 372 00:23:08,546 --> 00:23:12,846 event and the ones that just react to our post on LinkedIn, 373 00:23:12,898 --> 00:23:16,438 Instagram and so on. But I would say that next year we'll 374 00:23:16,454 --> 00:23:20,298 really try to onboard more young people because we are almost 375 00:23:20,384 --> 00:23:24,094 all third years. So in order to bring it forward we do need 376 00:23:24,292 --> 00:23:28,014 some younger people who are also more active within 377 00:23:28,132 --> 00:23:31,390 the master spaces because we will be all living, 378 00:23:31,460 --> 00:23:34,786 mastered. Yeah, I guess at 379 00:23:34,808 --> 00:23:38,402 some point. Yeah, exactly. Like you were saying, 380 00:23:38,456 --> 00:23:40,900 you said you finished your thesis last week. 381 00:23:41,590 --> 00:23:44,706 Yes. So congratulations I guess. Thank you very 382 00:23:44,728 --> 00:23:48,486 much. Relief out of your shoulders. Yes, let's wait for 383 00:23:48,508 --> 00:23:51,958 the final grade though. But yes, I'm sure you'll be great. 384 00:23:52,044 --> 00:23:55,346 Because I think you're a great person and you're 385 00:23:55,378 --> 00:23:59,862 super interested and involved and you take initiative. So people 386 00:23:59,916 --> 00:24:04,140 that are like that, like you, you'll always do well, I think, 387 00:24:04,670 --> 00:24:07,866 but I wish you all the best. Would you like to run me through your 388 00:24:07,888 --> 00:24:11,962 thesis? I think you talked a little bit about refi 389 00:24:12,026 --> 00:24:15,358 and DeFi, right? How do they work? 390 00:24:15,444 --> 00:24:19,454 Yeah, exactly. Yes. So I 391 00:24:19,572 --> 00:24:22,902 started by analyzing financial structures, 392 00:24:22,986 --> 00:24:26,350 traditional financial structures in line with traditional 393 00:24:26,430 --> 00:24:30,866 capitalism. I started from like I would say the 70s 394 00:24:30,968 --> 00:24:33,918 when there has been also financialization of capitalism. 395 00:24:34,014 --> 00:24:37,442 So there was increased importance to finance 396 00:24:37,506 --> 00:24:42,520 and this to a certain extent led to sorry, 397 00:24:45,690 --> 00:24:48,810 led to the creation of some pictures assets. 398 00:24:49,230 --> 00:24:52,662 So then I present the solution, 399 00:24:52,726 --> 00:24:56,822 I would say the regenerative capitalism which talks 400 00:24:56,886 --> 00:25:01,726 about the way nature should be related to 401 00:25:01,748 --> 00:25:04,174 what we deliver. So for example, 402 00:25:04,292 --> 00:25:07,726 now all we produce is not related to 403 00:25:07,748 --> 00:25:12,314 the resources that we have. So we sort of have this understanding 404 00:25:12,442 --> 00:25:15,986 that we always can take anything for granted and 405 00:25:16,008 --> 00:25:19,874 for free in nature. But that's not actually how it works because we have seen 406 00:25:19,912 --> 00:25:24,046 it with climate change and so that's why now we have this sustainability 407 00:25:24,158 --> 00:25:27,366 problems. So we didn't think about this at the 408 00:25:27,388 --> 00:25:31,334 beginning before just starting increased production but 409 00:25:31,452 --> 00:25:35,446 we are now working against the problem in trying to 410 00:25:35,548 --> 00:25:38,598 cope with it. While the overall, 411 00:25:38,774 --> 00:25:42,554 I would say argument in terms 412 00:25:42,592 --> 00:25:45,994 of capitalism is really that it's just not 413 00:25:46,032 --> 00:25:49,690 sustainable, not to take care and treat differently human 414 00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:52,170 components, financial components, 415 00:25:52,510 --> 00:25:56,954 economy components, politic components and so on. So somehow 416 00:25:57,002 --> 00:26:00,222 we all measure everything in terms 417 00:26:00,276 --> 00:26:03,778 of how much money this thing can make, whether it's a human, 418 00:26:03,864 --> 00:26:07,954 whether it's research, whether it's really whatever. 419 00:26:08,072 --> 00:26:12,190 And this cannot keep going because it's just not sustainable. 420 00:26:12,350 --> 00:26:16,050 And so the way I did my thesis is through interviews. 421 00:26:16,130 --> 00:26:19,718 So I interviewed twelve people and 422 00:26:19,804 --> 00:26:23,398 this was actually the outcome and the background of 423 00:26:23,484 --> 00:26:27,714 these people was really varied. So somewhere from the DeFi, 424 00:26:27,762 --> 00:26:31,434 refi and TradFi space. So I tried to very 425 00:26:31,472 --> 00:26:35,302 much vary the sample and I really studied 426 00:26:35,366 --> 00:26:39,350 how decentralization and in particular decentralized 427 00:26:39,510 --> 00:26:43,070 finance and regenerative finance can ease, 428 00:26:44,850 --> 00:26:48,830 I would say the financial inclusivity and digital inclusivity 429 00:26:50,050 --> 00:26:53,582 and why the current capitalistic structures and traditional 430 00:26:53,646 --> 00:26:56,754 finance as well cannot solve these kind of problems. 431 00:26:56,952 --> 00:27:01,218 And the results were quite interesting I would say, because all 432 00:27:01,304 --> 00:27:03,694 interviews focus very much on tokenization, 433 00:27:03,822 --> 00:27:07,478 so the way tokenization on blockchain can 434 00:27:07,564 --> 00:27:10,982 really help in better assessing the value. 435 00:27:11,116 --> 00:27:14,754 So they argued that there was a bad reserve 436 00:27:14,802 --> 00:27:19,210 allocation and this problem could be solved through tokenization. 437 00:27:19,790 --> 00:27:24,054 The second thing was about the usages of DeFi and threadfi. 438 00:27:24,182 --> 00:27:29,580 So no one said that DFI will make 439 00:27:30,830 --> 00:27:34,926 thread fi go away, so they think that they will coexist in the 440 00:27:34,948 --> 00:27:37,326 future because they solve different problems. 441 00:27:37,508 --> 00:27:40,602 So of course the DeFi market is more volatile, 442 00:27:40,666 --> 00:27:44,674 but it's also more liquid. So what they proposed in 443 00:27:44,712 --> 00:27:47,934 general averagely is that DeFi 444 00:27:47,982 --> 00:27:51,842 is better for microfinance. So to really 445 00:27:51,896 --> 00:27:56,786 try to empower all communities, because in order to access crypto 446 00:27:56,818 --> 00:28:01,190 bank account, let's say you just need an internet connection instead 447 00:28:01,260 --> 00:28:04,802 of all those KYC and human judgment processes, 448 00:28:04,946 --> 00:28:08,570 while for large amounts of money exchange, 449 00:28:09,630 --> 00:28:13,494 the threat by could still be the best option because you somehow 450 00:28:13,542 --> 00:28:17,242 need the security from central bank. So these were 451 00:28:17,376 --> 00:28:21,050 the results and in terms of refi 452 00:28:21,210 --> 00:28:25,102 specifically, they think that they 453 00:28:25,156 --> 00:28:28,762 address decentralized finance by really valuing 454 00:28:28,826 --> 00:28:33,034 the human in sustainable component, which is increasingly 455 00:28:33,082 --> 00:28:36,818 of course more needed. So I think I'm quite happy with the 456 00:28:36,824 --> 00:28:41,006 results in the final thesis as well because it's 457 00:28:41,038 --> 00:28:45,666 just very much looking at the future and so we see why 458 00:28:45,768 --> 00:28:48,882 and when certain kind of things could be valuable. 459 00:28:49,026 --> 00:28:52,774 So it's not one or the other, but it's more like to what 460 00:28:52,812 --> 00:28:56,582 extent one or the other can exist in order to 461 00:28:56,716 --> 00:28:59,900 solve as many problems as possible or to just 462 00:29:00,590 --> 00:29:03,690 fill in all the needs of all stakeholders. 463 00:29:04,510 --> 00:29:07,738 Definitely, I think especially since they 464 00:29:07,904 --> 00:29:11,586 also set up some sustainable development goals 465 00:29:11,638 --> 00:29:15,198 for 2030 and now they're seeing that they're not going to be met. 466 00:29:15,364 --> 00:29:19,034 There's this urge that everyone now worries 467 00:29:19,082 --> 00:29:22,746 about sustainability, right? And I think thesis like yours 468 00:29:22,778 --> 00:29:27,042 and these type of conclusions that you had in the end are 469 00:29:27,096 --> 00:29:30,690 useful and hopefully will also help other companies take 470 00:29:30,760 --> 00:29:34,242 action when they start looking for oh, 471 00:29:34,376 --> 00:29:37,966 I have this idea, let me implement it. But now 472 00:29:38,008 --> 00:29:41,910 they're going to start thinking, does this actually bring value? And am I taking into 473 00:29:41,980 --> 00:29:45,170 consideration the people that are low in the chain? 474 00:29:45,250 --> 00:29:48,966 Because there's a lot of workers from Asia, for example, 475 00:29:49,068 --> 00:29:52,346 that they're the ones who actually suffer the consequences. At the 476 00:29:52,368 --> 00:29:55,626 end of the day, they're paid low wages and then they still get all 477 00:29:55,648 --> 00:29:59,386 the plastic that we produce as well. Exactly. 478 00:29:59,568 --> 00:30:03,098 It's really important, and I think it's great what 479 00:30:03,104 --> 00:30:06,686 you're doing. I also want to get more informed about the refi and 480 00:30:06,708 --> 00:30:10,560 if I so at some point you could provide me. Your thesis would be great. 481 00:30:11,250 --> 00:30:14,100 Absolutely. Yeah, of course. Nice. 482 00:30:14,550 --> 00:30:17,906 We only have eight minutes left. So in one 483 00:30:17,928 --> 00:30:21,134 of the last assignments that we did for the DLP 484 00:30:21,182 --> 00:30:24,638 program, we spoke a lot about personal branding. 485 00:30:24,814 --> 00:30:28,150 How do you put your message out there? So I think 486 00:30:28,220 --> 00:30:31,270 that's maybe a good way of finishing our interview. 487 00:30:31,610 --> 00:30:35,734 My question is yes. How did you develop your 488 00:30:35,772 --> 00:30:39,606 personal brand and how do you usually position yourself out there? Which channels 489 00:30:39,638 --> 00:30:43,020 do you tend to use? Yes, 490 00:30:44,430 --> 00:30:48,858 so I think that it really comes to your 491 00:30:48,944 --> 00:30:51,600 inner willingness of sharing something. 492 00:30:53,730 --> 00:30:57,198 I really tried so many topics, but just because I always 493 00:30:57,284 --> 00:31:00,782 wanted to share something, what I was learning, 494 00:31:00,916 --> 00:31:04,382 no matter the topic. So that's how I started, just by 495 00:31:04,436 --> 00:31:07,730 really like, interpretation of sharing and seeing 496 00:31:07,800 --> 00:31:11,314 people reacting to me and say, okay, this is valuable. So that was 497 00:31:11,352 --> 00:31:13,940 actually what was making me happy, in a sense. 498 00:31:15,350 --> 00:31:19,238 But of course, then if you want to move this interest 499 00:31:19,324 --> 00:31:23,298 in actually a job, or more like just something more structured, 500 00:31:23,394 --> 00:31:26,966 then of course you need to study as well how 501 00:31:26,988 --> 00:31:30,586 to brand yourself. So it cannot just be personal 502 00:31:30,688 --> 00:31:34,282 interest, but you also need to niche it down, 503 00:31:34,336 --> 00:31:38,060 I would say, because now that the creator economy just got 504 00:31:38,670 --> 00:31:42,800 expanded, I think at almost its maximum level, 505 00:31:43,330 --> 00:31:47,422 everyone really has access to spreading information. 506 00:31:47,556 --> 00:31:50,686 So you need to make yourself unique, in a sense, 507 00:31:50,788 --> 00:31:54,778 but you don't need to, I think, think too much about how 508 00:31:54,804 --> 00:31:58,242 to make yourself unique because you are already unique just by being yourself. 509 00:31:58,376 --> 00:32:01,774 And sometimes I think this is the hardest challenge. 510 00:32:01,822 --> 00:32:05,490 So how to really understand who you are and 511 00:32:05,640 --> 00:32:08,180 what's the way in which you deliver information. 512 00:32:08,890 --> 00:32:12,882 If you understand that, then it's easier just to keep replicating 513 00:32:12,946 --> 00:32:16,818 it. Because what I really notice is that we're 514 00:32:16,834 --> 00:32:20,442 really surrounded by a lot of information. And every time I just see 515 00:32:20,496 --> 00:32:23,642 something interesting or that I'm really curious of, 516 00:32:23,696 --> 00:32:27,322 I'm like, oh, I like this way of posting things. Right. 517 00:32:27,376 --> 00:32:31,226 But then I just keep changing and my audience will never understand who 518 00:32:31,248 --> 00:32:34,734 I am. Right. Because I will just keep not even 519 00:32:34,772 --> 00:32:38,702 copy pasting, but be inspired by a lot of people. So you need to 520 00:32:38,836 --> 00:32:43,040 gather information from outside, but then you need to share it in your own way. 521 00:32:43,810 --> 00:32:47,794 And I think that's actually. One of the hardest challenges because you 522 00:32:47,832 --> 00:32:51,554 always find people that not necessarily do better but 523 00:32:51,592 --> 00:32:54,340 do it in a way that you like it more, right? 524 00:32:55,110 --> 00:32:58,598 So I think that when you manage to detach yourself from 525 00:32:58,764 --> 00:33:03,430 the listener or the user of certain content 526 00:33:03,500 --> 00:33:06,774 and the one that produces it and try to understand the difference, 527 00:33:06,972 --> 00:33:10,666 then you can somehow guide yourself in making a 528 00:33:10,688 --> 00:33:14,540 personal brand, but still while still being inspired by others. 529 00:33:14,990 --> 00:33:18,854 And further, I think that my biggest 530 00:33:18,902 --> 00:33:22,606 advice would be really just to get started because 531 00:33:22,788 --> 00:33:26,174 the more you not even fail but 532 00:33:26,292 --> 00:33:29,614 understand what works and what doesn't, the more you 533 00:33:29,652 --> 00:33:33,406 perfectionize what you're delivering. Because if 534 00:33:33,428 --> 00:33:36,706 you always just keep studying it sort of tends to 535 00:33:36,728 --> 00:33:40,626 go on a procrastination level because you want to 536 00:33:40,648 --> 00:33:43,938 have it perfect but you will never have it perfect if you don't get the 537 00:33:43,944 --> 00:33:47,522 feedback from the people. Because again, if you're sensor to yourself, 538 00:33:47,576 --> 00:33:51,318 you're doing it for them and of course for yourself, but you need 539 00:33:51,404 --> 00:33:54,934 to have the other side as well. So I 540 00:33:54,972 --> 00:33:58,566 think that the more you try, the more you see what they 541 00:33:58,588 --> 00:34:02,266 like and what they understand better. And this especially in terms of 542 00:34:02,288 --> 00:34:06,310 communication. And then, of course, you need to just study basic, 543 00:34:06,390 --> 00:34:10,506 I would say marketing skills. And also when deciding 544 00:34:10,538 --> 00:34:13,200 the social that works best for you, 545 00:34:14,370 --> 00:34:17,754 it really comes also on the kind of character 546 00:34:17,802 --> 00:34:21,166 and personality you have. So if you 547 00:34:21,268 --> 00:34:24,478 really want to always showcase your face and talk a 548 00:34:24,484 --> 00:34:28,066 lot, maybe Twitter is not the best place while Instagram could be. 549 00:34:28,168 --> 00:34:31,746 So I would say that there's really space for 550 00:34:31,768 --> 00:34:35,454 everyone but there has to be a lot of self 551 00:34:35,512 --> 00:34:38,822 reflection first and don't just follow 552 00:34:38,876 --> 00:34:42,790 the hype. I would say if you focus on building 553 00:34:42,860 --> 00:34:46,822 something on the long term because I did that so I know 554 00:34:46,956 --> 00:34:50,146 what it's like to have oh my God, AI is exploding, 555 00:34:50,178 --> 00:34:53,846 I want to talk about it and so on. But yes, let's separate 556 00:34:53,878 --> 00:34:57,066 it. That's not my long term path. I can 557 00:34:57,088 --> 00:35:00,686 talk about it because it's something interesting but that's one post 558 00:35:00,788 --> 00:35:04,186 compared to all the other which still talks about my topic. 559 00:35:04,298 --> 00:35:08,078 So don't change something just because 560 00:35:08,244 --> 00:35:11,440 it's nice at the moment or it's cruise at the moment. 561 00:35:12,530 --> 00:35:16,322 I'm really saying that because I was one of those people doing that and 562 00:35:16,376 --> 00:35:19,826 it doesn't work. So just I would say 563 00:35:20,008 --> 00:35:23,794 go straight with a process like with a path and 564 00:35:23,832 --> 00:35:27,322 then every time you see something interesting or curious 565 00:35:27,406 --> 00:35:30,742 worth changing that of course it's good to change 566 00:35:30,796 --> 00:35:33,846 but don't just be too impulsive in a sense just 567 00:35:33,868 --> 00:35:37,654 because maybe you're curious or you saw someone doing it better. 568 00:35:37,852 --> 00:35:41,242 Yes, I think maybe we are similar in that way because 569 00:35:41,296 --> 00:35:45,158 I also have a lot of ideas but I'm 570 00:35:45,174 --> 00:35:48,140 still a bit shy in exposing my opinion out there. 571 00:35:48,590 --> 00:35:52,406 I've recently started writing some more medium articles 572 00:35:52,438 --> 00:35:55,358 and trying to post a bit more regularly on LinkedIn as well. 573 00:35:55,444 --> 00:35:58,414 But I would like at some point to have my space a bit more out 574 00:35:58,452 --> 00:36:01,934 there. For example, that's why I was really trying to get this 575 00:36:01,972 --> 00:36:04,240 interview, because hopefully we'll get you. 576 00:36:05,810 --> 00:36:09,522 But in any case, I agree, I think it's great advice what you're saying, 577 00:36:09,576 --> 00:36:12,926 because a lot of people, sometimes they just go after the new shiny 578 00:36:12,958 --> 00:36:16,822 thing. But at the end of the day, you need to find what works 579 00:36:16,876 --> 00:36:19,634 for you. And also, how do you get more interactions? 580 00:36:19,762 --> 00:36:23,240 How does the public communicate with you 581 00:36:23,690 --> 00:36:26,950 and keep reiterating until you're perfecting? 582 00:36:27,850 --> 00:36:31,180 But I think we're now getting to. Thank you very much. 583 00:36:31,630 --> 00:36:35,402 Thanks for joining. And I'll share this 584 00:36:35,456 --> 00:36:38,554 with you. I don't know if you have any other final words you'd like to 585 00:36:38,592 --> 00:36:42,540 say or I don't know. 586 00:36:43,310 --> 00:36:47,006 Yeah, I would just say study the blockchain, study web three. Even if 587 00:36:47,028 --> 00:36:50,606 you are not passionate, you don't want to have anything to 588 00:36:50,628 --> 00:36:54,494 do with it. But it's just good to know that it's out there, 589 00:36:54,612 --> 00:36:58,414 because I think the companies will just keep increasing using them. 590 00:36:58,452 --> 00:37:02,254 So you need to be aware, need to be proactive, critical in 591 00:37:02,292 --> 00:37:05,830 what you have in front. So I will. Closing lady. 592 00:37:06,170 --> 00:37:08,120 Okay, perfect. Sounds good.